[straube]

Let's say your 2C opening promises 21-22 balanced or any 4441. Responder's 2M response is a very negative response and an offer to play with 5+ in the major.

2C-2H, ?
2C-2S, ?

Are you better off removing to 2S (in the first case) or 2N (in the second case) or are you better off passing.

On the upside of passing, you have the possibility of a 6-1 fit, the possibility of shortness somewhere in partner's hand where you can score ruffs, and with that perhaps better communication.

Aside from the obvious downside of possibly having fewer and poorer trump than the opponents, removing the contract may also uncover a side fit somewhere....perhaps a 4-4 fit in the other major even.

Any opinions here?

[kenrexford]

Need more info, I think.

First, by "any" 4441, am I assuming correctly something like 10+, or is "any" just referring to the shortness, with 4441 hands being strong?

Second, under what circumstances would you bid 2M?

I mean, if the answers are that the 4441 options are also strong, and if 2M is sn attempt to get out at 2M opposite the balanced option, that's a poor agreement, IMO. You create the onvious problem for all of the 4441 hands to gain something relatively pointless contextually. No one else stops at 2M, and you only gain on those rare hands if 3M does not make.

Better might be to solve two problems, such as 2M as 4-card here plus 5+ minor, a difficult hand opposite 2NT but interesting opposite 4441 hands.

All that said, you are entitled to your opinion and have asked a "now what?" in that context. The problem is somewhat easier if you just decide to play 3M opposite the strong, balanced, which I expect to be a 2D wait, 2N rebid, transfer, pass. If that works, then 2M shows exactly 5. That is only balanced if 5332. In all other situations, a side 4-card exists. So, move seems right.

If you insist on 6+ as possible, then it gets messy.

[straube]

Was trying to spare the details but here goes....

1C-1D (strong club, 0-4 or 10+ response)
1H-1S (asking, asking)
2C-2M (bigger hand, 0-2 and 5+ in the major)

Basically opener is likely to have any 4432, 4333, 5332 or 4441 of 21-22 points. He could have other hands which don't create conflicts but responder is betting on the 21-22 variety.

So the question is if responder bids 2M saying "I want out in 2M" what is opener's best move here? To sit and hope for a 6-cd suit or to run and thereby reveal a misfitting 4441 of 21-22 ct.

We have similar situations after

1C-1D (strong club, 0-4 or 10+ response)
1H-1S (asking, asking)
1N-transfer (17-20 balanced or 4441s, 0-4 with major)

Again opener can accept the transfer and play a possible 5-1 fit or can run.

I feel like others(Moscito players?) must have faced this sort of situation before and I'm hopeful there's a consensus.

[straube]

Well, I ran some hands myself and the way I scored wins and losses I arrived at 24 wins and 10 losses for pulling. A win was any removal from a 5-1 fit. A loss was removing from a 6-1 fit even if an 8-cd minor fit was available because that was a level higher.

[Zelandakh]

You could perhaps rearrange the rebids to bypass the issue, with 1♥ showing any 17-20 or a big balanced hand and 1♠ being any unbalanced game force or the 3-suiter. Presumably you could also make a 1NT rebid show the 3-suiter and 1♥ followed by 1NT be 17-20 balanced. But I guess either of these would mess up your 2-way asking structure. Within the confines of your existing system I would think removing is best.

[gszes]

it is always better to invest 1 more level of bidding when strain is in doubt. In this case I would use 2s to show the heart shortness and average to minimum type hand and 2n to show near top of range and shortness in hearts with lots of controls just in case this makes responder rethink game prospects (even in hearts). 4H an obvious super accept.
3c 3d 3h heart fit not max SSGT C D S respectively.

[PrecisionL]

I voted pass because balanced is much more frequent than 4441.

A different design may eliminate the problem:
Maybe after 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥:

Responder should show his major suit distribution:

1♠ = 4+ Spades and 0-3 hearts and 0-7 hcp

1NT = 0-3 in both majors and 0-4 hcp

2♣ = 5-7 hcp and exactly 3♥s

2♦ = 5-7 hcp and 5,6♥s

2♥ = 4♥s and 3-5 hcp

Reference: Johnson & Berkowitz

Edit add: I have played this scheme and the 1♥ rebid by the 1♣ opener only promises 2♥ if balanced and 20+ hcp. The opener is never 4=1=4=4 in our system.

[kenrexford]

Repeating somewhat, but when auctions lead to a tough problem, one reasonable alternative is to assess what the rest of the field will face. Here, it is difficult to imagine many stopping shy of 3M if Opener has the balanced hand. That ses to suggest bidding on. However, those people likely play the major from the strong side and may be beating us anyway when the final contract is in spades.

Because of the wrong-siding issue with spades, I would probably complete pattern after 2S freely, bidding 2NT with 1444, 3C with 2344/2434, 3D with 2443, 3H as a superaccept of spades, and 3S to play. I am willing to play at the field 3S, but I am fishing for a lucky gainer if partner has a side 4-card suit. Might bid 3minor also as 2335/2353. Or, combine.

In the 2H scenario, we have right-sided the contract and will be winning against the field when we can pass. Now, I want more ability to make moves delicately. 2NT as 4144, sure. Then, I like power moves beyong this. 3H as 1444, 3D as 4414. 3C as 4441 or any balanced worth a move, with 3D back conditionally accepting opposite 4441.

[straube]

Thanks for the replies thus far. As to the system suggestions, we're pretty ok with how things are working. I've posted before about what we're doing...1C-1D, 1H handles most of our balanced hands as well as certain other hands and has nothing to do with hearts. It gives responder a chance to show patterns when he has the 10+ type of hand before the bidding gets too high. It economizes space for both hands.

I'm more interested in the very generic question of if opener has a good balanced hand which could also be a 4441 and partner happens to transfer to or want to play in our stiff, does it make sense to play there or run. From the few hands I looked at, the answer seems to be run. At worst, responder can rebid his suit again and play a 6-1 at the 3-level. Of course, he can also pass or correct to other contracts.

I'll need for 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2M, 3M to be the only super-accept as I've got uses for all the other bids (3m by opener is just invitational in the minor). In any case, this is cutting things pretty fine. Responder says he wants to play 2M opposite a probable 21-22 balanced hand and opener makes a try anyway. I don't think I need to get too complicated here.